Going Out With Jake Cornell: Codependent (w/ Joe Hegyes & Andrew Muscarella)

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This week, Jake goes out with childhood friends and the comedians behind the “Good Children” podcast, Joe Hegyes and Andrew Muscarella. The three discuss a “Girls”-inspired trip gone wrong, codependent friendships, and learning to be less wholesome. Tune in for more.

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Jake Cornell: Hi babes. The starting is always so awkward, because we record the intro before, so I don’t need to do any sort of intro. It’s so nice to see you in person.

Andrew Muscarella: Oh my God, it’s an honor to be here.

JC: Okay. First off, congratulations. The success of the pod is truly incredible, but it’s also obvious because it’s so good.

AM: Thank you so much. It’s a lot of fun.

JC: It’s been a lot of fun to listen to. I said that like I was part of the team, I said it has been a lot of fun. We’ve hung out outside of me watching you on the internet and vice versa. One time pride party, I was on a different planet.

Joe Hegyes: Yes, but I think we all are physically at that space, but definitely not mentally there.

JC: I felt guilty because I convinced you guys to go to that party, and it was sort of under a bridge in a car parking lot.

JH: Do you have a backstory to us arriving at that party?

JC: I think you told it to me, but I was on a tab of acid, so I don’t fully remember it.

JH: You told us about that party. We were like, okay, we have to go, and then this is actually so humiliating.

JC: Oh, no.

JH: We were at a bottom.

AM: It was our friend’s engagement. No, it was our friend’s engagement party. You were to us like, “Jake is going to this party, we’re going to go to the party.”

JC: Stop.

AM: There was like regular tickets, and VIP tickets.

JC: No, no, no.

JH: We’re not going to need to be VIP at this. And literally for what? But there were so many layers of lying here because we were like, okay, we’re going to buy the VIP tickets, we’re going to flex, we’re going to show up, and then we hit purchase. I got a low balance alert immediately, and then we looked at each other and we both knew, we were like, we have to lie. We can’t, or that we just did something embarrassing.

JC: We have to say we bought GA.

JH: Our friends were like, “Are you okay?” We’re like, we just spent a lot of money on VIP tickets for this party, but I think that we’re going to tell you that our friend got us the ticket.

JC: That is so funny.

JH: It’s not that we can’t tell the truth here, but then we just ultimately I think never explained it, and we really never went to the VIP.

JC: I was going to say, what did VIP get you that I didn’t have there?

JH: The bar, which was nice.

AM: Yes, that was the best.

JC: Well, then that’s worth it. We probably ended up spending the same amount of money.

AM: Yes, and then there was the VIP space, but we were afraid to go.

JC: Those are almost always bad. VIP spaces are almost always bad. That is so funny. I also remember you being like, “We’re here.” I realized I was nowhere within two hours of getting to that party when you texted, and I was like, “Come to the exit.” And you’re like, “Well, we are like under the bridge.” I was like, “Okay wait, we’re going to get there.” Then I got there, and it was like when I got there, probably an hour and a half after you texted me, there was still at that point no one there, so I was like, “What have they been doing?”

JH: We were just standing there.

JC: I felt so guilty.

AM: I was doing floor routines in the open space, it was actually a lot of fun.

JH: It was really fun. It was a great day.

JC: Oh, I had a great day that day, and then we went back to the XLE after. It was good, and then it gets a little fuzzy. The reason me and my best friend David got tickets to that event. The reason why was because were you guys in New York for the Pride before the 2021 Pride?

JH: No. Were we?

AM: Oh yes. That was my Grinch Pride. I stayed in, I was like, I hate gay people.

JC: Oh, okay. We all had one. Everyone’s had one of those. That pride was so ticketed, and everything was sold out, and I felt like that was literally the Arrows tour. You had to get on, and get your tickets and coordinate with your friends and then it was getting tickets to the sold-out things to make sure you could see your friends on Pride. That was so 2021, that I think David and I thought it was going to be that vibe. We were like, “Get the tickets.” And everyone else was like, “No, you can go to a bar now.” We didn’t expertly handle that day.

JH: Honestly though, you got us out of the apartment.

AM: Yes, and that’s all that matters.

JH: It was a learning also.

JC: You two are not going-outers?

JH: Yes, we had this conversation yesterday when we were talking about doing this podcast. We were like, “Oh. Where do we go, what did we do?” I think that like-

JC: Yes, wait, let’s get into this. For the context of anyone who hasn’t listened to Joe and Andrew’s pod, that’s insane. Go listen to it. It’s called “Good Children.” You two have been friends since you were 7?

JH: Four.

JC: Jesus Christ, four, and you’re from Long Island, from the same town?

JH: Yes.

JC: There’s a lot of history there just for the listeners. Walk me through what going out looks like now, and what it has looked like over the time. If you don’t go out, that’s allowed. That’s okay.

JH: We definitely do go out.

AM: Once a quarter I’m out and about.

JC: Wow.

AM: No more than that, but I don’t know, I feel like now going out for me is like I never pre-game enough, and then I’m going to — we had an era of just going to the Rosemont or Metropolitan and going to a few specific really just gay spaces, and being there and then being like, “Okay, I’m ready to go home.” I think that prior to that, for us we weren’t partiers in high school. That’s the premise of-

JC: Yes, totally.

JH: We literally were not breaking rules, and I think that for me, I literally learned to drink at 21. Fully did not drink before.

JC: Where did you guys go to college? Did you go to college?

AM: I went to Loyola in Baltimore. It was a Catholic school.

JC: I know it.

JH: I commuted to Hofstra on Long Island.

JC: Incredible.

AM: I also commuted, so-

JC: All four years?

JH: All four years, and sometimes by mom to school.

JC: That’s incredible.

JH: Thank you. Somehow I made it.

AM: Incredible source.

JH: I made it past it. The premise, the backbone of going out didn’t exist for me, and now I feel like I’m still learning what I actually enjoy, and what freaks me out. A lot of times I’m just freaked out.

JC: Walk me through freaked out.

JH: Everything freaks me out. I’m like, “What are we doing here?”

AM: We did go through parts of our lives where I feel like we were going out and we were dancing and we were having fun. I feel like you had that experience when you were living in New York, and I was in Austin and with everything I know.

JC: For how long?

AM: Two years too long.

JC: No, babe.

AM: For sure, and he’s going back next week.

JC: For how long?

AM: For five days.

JC: Why?

AM: It’s just because I saw friends there so I’m like-

JC: Why did you move there?

AM: Okay, this literally sucks. No, I moved to Boston because again in high school, I’ve always wanted to live in Boston. I don’t know what it was.

JC: That’s so abnormal to me.

JH: Harvard of it all?

AM: It wasn’t the Harvard of it all. It honestly shockingly was like the Boston College of it all for me at that time, and I was like, I want to live in Boston, everybody’s so cool in Boston. That was the time that I was living the lines out to the core, and then I wanted to chase that after-

JC: It’s so funny, you rebelled against Long Island culture with Martha’s Vineyard culture. That’s so crazy.

JH: It was troubling to see it happen. Who was this person? Who was he becoming?

JC: Was that a miserable time for you when he was in Boston?

JH: Yes. Andrew was like — I always say this, which is f*cked up because I have other friends, but my only friend, truly who like really knew me and understood me. When he went away to school I was like, “What am I supposed to do?” And then when he was in Boston at that point I had my party girl era. I was working at Buzzfeed, so I had the Buzzfeed gay moment, and I was going to like the blonde, and be an adult first.

AM: I was jealous. I was looking at your — I was like, “Oh my god, Joe is having so much fun in New York City.”

JH: I felt very cool.

JC: Were you having fun actually, or was it performative?

JH: I was having fun. I was with a bunch of people who were just doing so many drugs, and I was literally straight edge. I wasn’t drinking, but watching them do drugs and-

JC: Wow.

JH: -staying out until 6 a.m. by default with them, and that was fun though. It was very anthropological for me.

JC: I’m sure that makes sense to me. Okay, wait, but you don’t go out as much now?

AM: I would say that we go out.

JH: You ran The Eagle this weekend?

AM: Listen that was my second time there.

JC: It’s a space and a time.

AM: Let’s just say it was a space. I do have a time, but yes I was at The Eagle this weekend. That was one of two times I was there.

JC: Would you ever go?

JH: Oh yes.

AM: I think we had this conversation. We honestly need to start doing things like that because-

JH: But the issue is we can’t go together. There’s a lot of spaces where if we’re together we’re not going to be so co-dependent that we will stand next to each other, and then whisper, speak to each other and then go home.

JC: Part of why I connect, I think I’ve told you guys this, probably a million times, but part of why I connected so much with your guys’ podcast is because I have a gay best friend who, I’m from a small town in Vermont. We were the only two gay people, but I’ve only known him since I was 12, so it’s not as impressive, but he’s been friends my entire life. I really connect with like that and we are so platonic that a space like the Eagle would be intense for me with him.

JH: That’s the problem.

JC: It’s just there’s an intense like platonic-ness. I was explaining this to my gay friend who has had sex with literally every single one of his close friends. I was like, there is such a deep level of platonic-ness and it’s not rooted in prudishness. It would feel incestuous. It’s truly familial. I don’t know. I don’t think you can explain it unless you have it.

JH: Exactly, yes.

JC: No, and that makes total sense to me.

JH: I think that if we were to go to the Eagle-

JC: You have to be like, okay-

JH: -you have to be with a group of people.

AM: And we have to split up.

JH: We’d have to be like, “I’ll go to the bathroom.”

AM: Still we would go home together.

JH: Exactly.

AM: I’d be like, “Meet me in 45 minutes.”

JC: Absolutely.

JH: That’s how we are when we go out.

JC: Because you also live together currently.

JH: It’s like we share one ringtone.

AM: We share a wall for sure.

JH: For sure.

AM: There’s like nothing. Actually, I think we’re reaching a point with it where every single thing we do is together. It hit me this weekend, too, there has not been a night spent where we have not spent the entire evening together and then been like, “Okay, goodnight.” Then woken up and spent the entire day together since we moved in together. Unless one of us has another plan, which is like-

JC: Wow.

JH: It’s been really great and creatively.

AM: Creatively amazing. Mentally.

JC: How long have you guys been living together?

JH: We’re almost at two years.

JC: Jesus Christ.

JH: Yes.

JC: That’s amazing but intense. Are you guys dating? Is this too personal?

JH: I’m unwilling to talk about any of that.

JC: What’s dating look like when you guys have this intense platonic relationship?

JH: Actually, in the early stages, I’m actually now officially in a relationship, which is crazy.

JC: Congrats.

JH: Thank you. This is our first time in a while where there’s someone else who I’m like, “Oh, I also have to see this person.” I think it’s still like Andrew still prioritize especially-

JC: Totally.

JH: -now that we’re at odds now because we’re like, “This is like a business that we’re building.” There was a time when I was like, you need to leave the apartment for four hours and come back.

AM: I did. I would go see a movie for-

JH: You saw “Rose” alone?

AM: No. That was one of the darkest movies.

JC: Wait, you shouldn’t have done that. That’s just the wrong thing to have done with the fans.

AM: You go to the back of the theater and you meet a fan and the first one is like, “I love your podcast.” I’m like, “Oh, I’m going to spiral.” No, we’re irritating.

JH: I think the biggest issue for us is we literally share a wall. Our walls are paper thin and everything that happens to the other apartment is like, it’s communal. We’ve had to be like, okay. Again, I’ve kicked Andrew out of the apartment multiple times. We also schedule dates for the same nights. If one of us is going on a date, the other one’s like, okay.

JC: Get on Tinder.

JH: I was going on a date and-

JC: Wow.

AM: Listen, you were hinged when you last got the message to 12 different people.

JH: It was 15 people like, “Hey, how’s it going?” I was like, so much good about-

JC: Oh my God.

JH: They did. No, I’m dating. Not really anybody, though, but I’m just seeing people.

JC: How long have you been seeing your guy?

JH: Since like early September.

JC: Huge.

JH: Huge. That is kind of huge.

JC: That is huge. That’s objectively huge. I think that if you’re-

JH: Yes, I’m like, wow.

JC: Dating someone for a couple of months and then becoming boyfriends I think is significant.

JH: Yes, it is.

JC: I don’t think that’s like — I assume it’s your first time doing that. Is it not?

JH: It’s not.

JC: Oh, okay.

AM: It’s a whole series.

JH: I have like an Ariana era where I had a few really intense, really brief.

JC: You’re like a serial monogamous?

JH: Honestly kind of. Then there was just this in between that where I was like, I’m not dating, but I had three- to five-month relationships in the same like 18-months span.

JC: Oh wow.

JH: That was like, I was like 22 to 24.

JC: You guys are currently 25?

JH: 26.

JC: Okay, great.

JH: Yes, that was like pre-Covid. This is the post-Covid world. Now I’m taking it in a different approach. It does feel different because I’m actually using my brain and being cognizant, but also I’ve done these things before. I’ve learned so much. Again, thank you, guys. Wait, so when the two of you have a night where one of these answers to the cameras was just like the two of you doing whatever. Are you hanging out, partying, socializing in the apartment, or are you guys just like sitting? If you’re not going out, what are you doing?

AM: No, we just hit our first big fight on Labor Day Weekend.

JC: Whoa. Are we fully past it?

JH: Yes, I think we’re fully-

AM: We have to like literally have a real conversation and like sit down.

JC: Was it one person’s fault? I’m starting this fight back up. We don’t have to talk about it.

JH: Oh no, I have to talk about it.

AM: I think we can talk about it if you’re okay.

JC: We had a technical difficulty, guys, so that’s why this conversation is jumping in a really brutal way. We’re going to get back to what we were talking about before. Well, no, because we were talking about like what you guys do on a night out or a night in rather. No, I want to hear about the fight.

JH: I can make this. I can tie it in. We went away, we went to Shelter Island for Labor Day weekend with a bunch of our friends.

JC: People say that island, where is it?

AM: Shelter Island. Shelter Island is all the way at the end of Long Island between the two forks. It goes North Fork and South Fork. It’s like Greenport and it’s right in the middle.

JC: I’m obsessed.

AM: Yes. It’s beautiful.

JH: Yes. Stunning. Amazing. We went with six or seven of our very close friends. I think that me and Andrew’s biggest conflict in life is that we don’t communicate when we’re mad at each other. It’s easy because we can tell but when you don’t communicate it, it just obviously leads to conflict. I was definitely being a b*tch and it was-

JC: Wait, pause, signs. What are your signs? Sun, moon, rising.

JH: I’m a Taurus sun, Virgo moon, Capricorn rising.

JC: Capricorn rising too. Okay.

AM: Virgo’s sun, Pisces moon, Libra rising.

JC: That Pisces moon. Yes, exactly.

JH: It affects me. I’ve never tossed away. Then my Libra rising. I’m like, I’m right.

JC: My ex has a Pisces moon and he would always be like, “I want a moon transplant. I need a transplant. I cannot bear this cross anymore.”

JH: I’m constantly emotional. I’m constantly planning, feeling the weight of the world.

JC: Okay, wait.

JH: In this particular weekend we were like, we wanted it to be — the issue is that we based around the episode of Girls From the Go East.

JC: Where they get in a huge fight.

JH: Yes. We literally based it off that weekend. I was kind of hosting the weekend so like I’m taking the role on being like, okay, everything needs to be perfect. I want to make sure that we’re eating, I want to make sure that we’re doing things.

JC: Virgo moon.

JH: Yes. I’m like ready to get all of-

JC: Now that I know you’re three, I’m going to be annoying, just a bite.

JH: That’s where my head was at.

AM: Wait, what are your signs?

JC: Scorpio sun, Aquarius moon, Capricorn rising.

JH: Those are like the three signs I know nothing about.

JC: I’m happy with my combo. I’ll say that.

JH: It seems healthy.

JC: Yes. Somewhat.

JH: Healthy.

JC: I thought I was healthier than I am, but now that I’m single, the volatility of Scorpio is jumping out in these ways that I’m not fully prepared for. I’m working through it. Wait, so you want to make the weekend perfect?

AM: Yes, I want to make the weekend perfect and like, “Okay, everybody’s having a good time.” I genuinely wouldn’t care about what was going on for me. I do want to make sure that other people are having a good time.

JH: Just to preface like, Andrew’s version of a good time is that he was making us get up at 8 a.m. and then leading a high-intensity interval training workout in the blazing heat outside for 45 minutes.

AM: It was like 10 a.m.

JH: I think that most people did not want to do it. Everyone was afraid to say. I wanted to do it.

AM: I said optional.

JH: Yes, but everyone was afraid to say no. We were all in this backyard sweating in the direct overhead sunlight pattern.

JC: Because that’s your job. You’re a fitness instructor, right?

AM: I was like, “Guys, it’s got to be so much fun like you’re to have free fitness classes.”

JH: He was being a Marni like he was very much — Again, it was based around this weekend of girls. Andrew was like, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do this. At some point, someone was like, we need like “Real Housewives” drama and we were in a car on the way to get dinner maybe or something. I was like, “Oh, I’ll introduce the drama.” Perfect. Like this is why I’m here. I was like, I’m really mad at someone in this car and I’m not going to say who it is.

JC: Are you joking?

AM: I swear to you.

JH: I was joking.

AM: But then it got to a point where like no one thought he was joking anymore. No. I have a list and Caroline, you’re off the list.

JC: Wait, this is really crazy.

AM: Six people. There’s still six people on the list here.

JC: How big was this f*cking car?

AM: It was like seven people. I’m like, “Oh, it’s me. It’s literally me.” You said I’m a problem. It’s me. That was like our tension throughout the weekend was like this.

JC: Was Andrew on the list?

AM: Well, I think that created a lot of back-and-forth passive aggression. When we are mad at each other, we don’t look each other in the face. We were doing things together with not actually looking at each other.

JC: This is like, I’m feeling sick.

JH: No, it’s sickening.

AM: I think it made you more sick than it makes me.

JC: This is when the friendship becomes brotherly because this will be — Sometimes I’ll like show David something and he just won’t like it. I’m like, I’ll be mad at him now. It’s like he’s allowed to have an opinion.

JH: Exactly.

JC: It’s what it is.

JH: We get back from the trip. Andrew drives back, we arrive back in our hometown, and it’s Andrew and our friend Garrett and we’re all going back to Brooklyn and Andrew is like, “Okay, we’re going to get on the train later on today.” I’m like, “Okay, drop me home. Let me know when you’re getting on the train, I might stay.”

AM: I will say, the energy in that car-

JH: Was scary.

AM: -on the way home was so scary. I was driving with my eyes forward the entire time and Joey really sludged over the front sleeping, and I was like, “Oh, sh*t.” I’m dropping you off.

JC: That’s the energy you’re emanating while asleep.

AM: I’m like, “I’ll go home, I probably will stay for a little bit. I don’t know, I’ll let you know.” I’m like, “Okay.”

JH: Then get out of the car and you didn’t even say bye to anyone.

AM: You didn’t say bye-

JC: So you were mad?

JH: I was mad but it wasn’t — now that — At this point, it’s just I was just mad because I knew Andrew was mad because he thought I was mad, and I was like, “You need to tell me that you’re mad because you’re not communicating it. It’s causing a problem but I was also not doing this.”

JC: Oh my God, this is making me physically ill.

JH: Yes, this is the problem with the codependence.

JC: No, I get it.

JH: Then to make the story short, it’s literally the longest story I’ve ever told. I’m home and then I’m like — this is also the double-edged sword. Andrew and Garrett are in Andrew’s house and I’m in my house. I’m like, “I’m going to go back to Brooklyn and not tell them. I’m going to be on a train and not tell them.” I get on the Long Island Railroad. I’m like, “I’m going home.” Somehow I find out that Andrew and Garrett are in an Uber going back to Brooklyn without telling me.

AM: In my head space I was like, “Okay, obviously Joe is mad at me, I’m going to let things mow over. He wants to stay at home so I’m just not going to say anything.” Garrett’s like, “I want to go back.” I’m like, “Let’s maybe Uber.”

JC: How much is an Uber from your hometown to Brooklyn?

AM: It was $50, which was nothing.

JH: If three people split that nothing, but I wasn’t invited.

AM: He didn’t tell me he was going.

JC: Wow, this is the thing is because what you’re actually mad about is the fact that there was an opportunity for you to be legitimately mad about the fact that he took the Uber. But because you took the train already, you can’t be mad about it, because he would have said no already, so that’s what you were mad about.

JH: Then I made the problem worse.

AM: He didn’t make the problem worse, I think I made the problem worse.

JH: We both made it worse.

JC: No, this is a perfect storm. This is like a cold front and heat front, absolutely.

JH: Lena Dunham could not have written it better herself. I know that they’re in this Uber, they don’t know that I’m on the train and they don’t know that I know their in an Uber.

JC: How did you know they were in an Uber?

JH: My friend Rachel was with them and she was like, “Oh, wait I thought we were getting in the Uber with them at Michigan Uber,” very innocently. I was like, “Oh, you just ruined my life.” I was writing Andrew letters on the train, and I was like, “This is the last time am ever going to speak to you.”

JC: Podcast is canceled.

JH: Literally, yes.

AM: I searched good children in my notes app and one of them was, a literal letter I wrote where I was like, “Who’s to say what will happen with good children.”

JC: That is so crazy.

AM: I was texting him and I was like, “Hey, I might get on a train soon. Let me know what you’re doing.”

JC: Meanwhile you’re on a train?

JH: I’m on a train.

JC: You’re so toxic for that one.

AM: He’s toxic, but again, I in this moment was like, “Oh f*ck, I didn’t say anything to Joe that I’m on the way to the city.” I don’t know why I crafted this lie but I say to Joe, I was like-

JC: I’m anxious.

JH: It was so bad.

AM: Yes, it was really bad and I was-

JC: What did you do?

AM: You said, “Are you in Uber?” I was like, “No, we ended up taking the train.”

JH: He’s saying he’s on the same train that I am on.

JC: Because you don’t know, this is a movie. The twists and turns of this, so you lie and say that you are on the train that you don’t know that Joe is actually on and Joe is pretending to not know that you’re in an Uber and you’re texting from that Uber.

AM: Yes.

JC: Oh my God.

JH: It’s getting worse and worse. I think I was like, “Rachel told me that you took an Uber. Why are you lying?” Then you were like, “I didn’t. I’m on a train. Why are you trying to start a fight?” That’s when I went nuts. I was like, “I’m being gaslighted. I’m being attacked.”

AM: I was-

JC: At what point do you reveal, I know you’re not on the train because I’m on the train?

AM: No, he didn’t. So you didn’t?

JH: I have to get you-

AM: Then he says-

JC: This is the best story I’ve ever heard.

AM: I think that you texted me and you were like, “Oh, I just got to Penn Station, are you at the ACE?”

JH: Yes, because we technically should have been at Penn at the same exact moment and we shouldn’t be taking the same subway home.

AM: I’m at home.

JH: I caught you, I kept doubling down on the lie and was like, “Let’s just meet in Penn Station then if we were both on the same train.” Then you stopped responding.

AM: Yes, because I don’t know what to do and obviously I was walking myself-

JC: Now you’re sitting in the apartment you share with Joe knowing he’s coming home mad?

AM: Yes.

JC: Oh my.

AM: Not just mad, scathingly. Scary scathingly mad and I am somebody who really doesn’t do well with confrontation, so I’m thinking in my head, I’m like, “Okay, f*ck I need to say to him I lied, that was so stupid whatever.” Let’s fast forward, you get home.

JH: I get home and immediately leave.

AM: I know

JH: I slam the door shut I don’t look at him and then I sat in the park for two and a half hours in the pouring rain listening to “The Archer” by Taylor Swift. Then I walked-

JC: Why “The Archer?”

JH: In that situation I was literally the archer and the prey.

JC: You picked a song that doesn’t have a beat drop, it just-

AM: Zero beat drop.

JH: I was trying to keep myself — Could you not be so much more miserable? Really a victimizing moment. But then something switched, right? I think we both at the same exact moment, were able to see the opposite person’s perspective and I was like, “I’m going to come home and I’ll have a real conversation.” As I was walking home-

JC: Soaking wet?

JH: Yes, actually, as I was walking home, you texted me and you were like, “I’m sorry and I want to have a real conversation about this,” in the exact moment. We were able to walk into the apartment and we split it out.

AM: We were like, it’s very tense.

JH: It was tense, but it was a lot less tense than I thought it was going to be and the conversation was-

AM: Amazing.

JH: -incredible, and I think that it did set the foundation going forward, like this. If we’re going to be going into business together or doing a podcast together, especially being best friends, if situations like this do arise-

JC: There has to be a level of communication. Yes, absolutely.

JH: Especially about feelings and about emotions and because then it’s going to lead to lying. But we were like, again it’s all for the story. Yes, that’s a great episode or something.

AM: I feel like did set a really good foundation with it. There’s definitely been moments, especially the past few years together, where were like, there’s been flare-up stuff. I can’t even look at you, for no reason. It’s just so much. Since that moment, I feel like we have figured out, “Oh, we need boundaries. Oh, we need to maybe have friends that aren’t each other’s friends. We need to do things on our own.”

JC: Totally.

AM: It’s like a marriage. I’m so sorry.

JC: That’s okay.

Katie Brown: He was worried that I was going to be mad.

AM: It’s was like you’re adding the drum.

JC: It was like the law and order, like dun, dun. It’s like you have to also grow as individuals, you have to do certain things separate from each other. Otherwise, it’ll just the codependency will deepen. That’s amazing.

AM: We’re splitting apart in a healthy way.

JC: Okay. Wow. That’s amazing. Wait, so what does it — Back to what we were talking about before the technical difficulty, I love it. If you’re not going out a ton of time — Or we’re not — It sounds like maybe the issue is we haven’t really found yet the groove of what going out you love.

AM: Going out we love and the community that we love to go out with.

JC: Is that true of both of you? Or do you feel like one of you is more adept at going out than the other?

AM: It’s interesting, because I do personally think that I would want to go out but I’m also somebody who’s like-. Do you know what I mean?

JC: Sure.

AM: In the morning. I hate being that because of entry and leave, but I do like to go out and have a good time and dance.

JC: What are you guys doing on the weekend?

AM: I feel like as of late, I have been going out or I’ve been hanging out with friends like we’re going to have fun when we go to a house party, we’re doing those things.

JH: I need to find a space that I enjoy like a club or a bar that doesn’t literally scare me. Not for any other reasons and like this just seems like a liminal space-

JC: Interesting.

JH: -to me and this space is freaking out.

JC: Well, it makes sense if you lived at home until 24. Your bar of what is a familiar space is incredibly high, so that’s going take a minute. That makes sense. I feel you guys need to find a bar in your neighborhood that is not popular and just start going there. That’ll start — Do you hear that, are aliens coming? What is that?

KB: I think there’s work being done in the building downstairs, but were going to take that out.

JC: No, it’s fine. I just was like, “Am I crazy?” Start by finding a place that’s dead that just the two of you and maybe a few other friends go and then that’ll become your space. Once you have a space you feel secure and you’ll be able to branch out.

JH: Okay, that sounds amazing.

JC: I think that’s-

JH: It sounds right. Literally all someone needs to do is tell us what to do and we do it.

JC: That’s why adulthood is hard because they don’t do that. There’s no manual.

JH: Oh my God. Carrie Bradshaw.

JC: No.

JH: Just like that. Yes, no, I feel like I need to find — I also want to get in — I don’t know why I’m saying this on a podcast, but I want to get into drugs. I want to experiment.

JC: Okay.

JH: Never have.

JC: Okay. Be careful. Have you ever experimented?

AM: Not really, no.

JC: Okay.

JH: I once did Molly.

JC: Okay. Be careful.

JH: Of course.

JC: Yes. You have to be careful.

JH: I think that, again, the baseline for me is careful.

JC: Yes. No, totally.

JH: Just like a petri dish.

JC: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

JH: I think that’s honestly what I’m going to need to enjoy myself, which is not amazing. It doesn’t sound like a healthy decision to make.

JC: I think sometimes you have to overshoot to then course correct back to where you actually need to land.

JH: Yes.

AM: Again, these little nuggets of wisdom.

JC: I’m older than you guys. I’m not a good child. I’m a good, somewhat adult. No, I get that. Can I just be honest? Skip coke. Like skip coke.

JH: Yes.

JC: Skip coke. Skip coke.

JH: I honestly can’t afford that.

JC: No. Well, there’s that, but also just skip it. It’s the one to skip in my opinion.

JH: Yes. No. It’s always been the one that just has no fascination to me.

JC: Yes. I can’t say that was true of me, and it’s not like I had a problem, but every time
I’ve done it, I felt literally like hell from it. It’s just not good.

JH: Okay.

JC: It’s also bad for you. I mean, they’re all bad for you, but I would say it’s pretty bad for your heart.

AM: Yes. I was going to say your heart can’t take anything else.

JC: Wait, when you’re hanging out at home, is it wine and watching YouTube videos? What are we doing on a night in?

AM: It honestly does depend. I do think that we tend to talk a lot. We’ll watch a little something, but I think that we’re getting out of our watching things era.

JH: Yes. Like, I can’t watch TV anymore. It’s usually like watching TV and smoking literally one hit of weed and saying, that’s enough and then-

AM: Oh my God. Like I have an idea.

JH: I have an idea. Then there’s brain dumping for two hours and then we’re like-

JC: Wow.

AM: Like, “Oh my God, we just got a movie.

JH: That’s actually what it is. That’s every day.

JC: That’s cute. That sounds intense.

JH: Yes. It’s not that intense.

AM: It’s not that intense. It’s more of like, it’s really nice to have somebody that you can creatively speak to and not feel — there’s zero judgment. There’s always like, “Oh my God, that’s such a good idea.” We’re crying, laughing, like cracking up the entire building.

JC: That’s amazing. That’s amazing.

JH: Sometimes I’m like, why would I want to leave this situation? It’s fun to bring people in. I love hosting. That’s the Leo in me.

JC: Sure.

JH: I literally love bringing in people, but I don’t love stepping out.

JC: Okay. Are you guys restaurant girls? Like even going out for food?

AM: Oh my God. Yes.

JH: Getting into dinner. It’s becoming a big thing for me.

JC: Where are we loving?

JH: Oh God. That’s where it ends. Last night we went to a restaurant. It’s like, I don’t have any specific restaurants in mind that I enjoy. I love when someone else makes that decision.

JC: Sure.

AM: I love to eat and I love to talk so elaborately about food in this crazy way. Last night we went to Renton 10. Which is great.

JC: Soho.

AM: Yes. We ventured.

JH: We ventured. There was another f*cking long story that does not need to be told, but we did end up at Renton 10. Those experiences I like. I like being out — again, it’s also the “Sex and the City” format. I need that kind of lifestyle where it’s like, “Let’s get drinks, let’s be crazy, then let’s go home.”

JC: Totally.

JH: I love going home. It’s the most important thing for me when it comes to going out.

JC: Yes. You and I are so different. It’s so funny. It’s so funny.

AM: Are you literally like, “Let’s keep it going.”?

JC: It’s not necessarily “let’s keep it going” because I don’t really escalate. I’m not like rage, rage. I’m not like, “Let’s do shots.” I keep a full calendar. If you want to get dinner with me, we’re looking at two weeks out probably usually. Now that I’m not bartending, I have a little bit more time. I usually keep nights pretty booked with different things and I like to have a plan. It doesn’t have to be the whole night, but I just like a night and I’m working on it because mine’s to a fault. I go out too much. I think it’s-

JH: I want that.

JC: I know, but I think it was rooted from living in — I feel like I say this every episode of the podcast. Listeners are like, “Shut up and talk about something else.” It’s so rooted in living in Vermont and feeling like there was nothing to do and always fantasizing about being here and having things to do. Now there are things to do. Now I’ve been here for eight and a half years and it’s like, “You can have a night in, babe. You’ve been doing it.” I’m trying to balance it a little bit, but I do prefer at least having a dinner or drinks moment. At least a happy hour or getting food or something.

JH: No, I kind of need you to bring us out and force us to step out. That would be a dream.

JC: Oh, yes. You also live by a ton of my favorite restaurants. We’ll go out to dinner.

AM: Oh my God, they’re awesome.

JH: Yes, I was just about to say-

JC: I just realized, because you guys are in William — Where in Williamsburg roughly are you?

AM: We’re like-

JH: By the movie theater.

JC: Oh yes. So Leo, the pizza restaurant.

AM: Honestly, I have no idea.

JH: I don’t know why I’m always talking sh*t. I’ve never been there. I have nothing against it and I’m always like, “I’m not going to Leo.”

JC: Okay. It’s so good and I love it.

JH: Heard that a lot. We should.

JC: Okay. Leo’s great. That’s one of my favorite Williamsburg restaurants. Jajaja, which is down by the water. Literally incredible. Suzume, which is like a little — that’s kind of over by like Metropolitan, but it’s Hawaiian food.

AM: Oh my gosh.

JC: Yes. Those are all good options. Then all the gay bars are right there.

JH: Yes. They are. They have my favorite spaces.

JC: Do you actually?

JH: No.

JC: Because I do remember you looking at me when I was tripping on acid on Pride under the bridge in the parking lot and going, “I hate gay people.”

AM: Is that what you said?

JH: I don’t remember saying that.

JC: I think you said, “I’m feeling overwhelmed. I hate gay people.”

JH: Probably, again, that was if I had a Grinch Pride in 2021, like my Grinch heart grew three times its size probably.

JC: Totally.

JH: I was like, “Oh, I like gay people now.”

JC: I very much relate to what you’re talking about.

JH: I mean, it was literally internalized homophobia that I was disguising it.

JC: It’s internalized homophobia. It’s also if you aren’t in that world, when you show up, you feel like such an outsider. You’re like, “I hate this.”

JH: Yes. It was a lack of confidence.

AM: It was a lot of like, I don’t fit in.

JH: Projecting that people didn’t care about me likely there. I was like, “F*ck all you b*tches.

JC: A hundred percent.

JH: “You’re fake, you’re losers.” Then realizing that I was the one who was acting like that.

JC: A hundred percent.

JH: Again, it’s me. I’m the problem. It’s me.

JC: Always. It’s crazy how that lyric is just — it, unfortunately, is applicable to literally everything.

JH: Everything. They’ve gotten you through so much.

JC: Everything. She was my number one on Spotify this year.

JH: Anyone who she wasn’t.

JC: Well, Beyonce, you’re allowed to have Beyonce.

JH: That’s absolutely, yes. I was.

JC: Be careful.

AM: That was a really good point.

JH: Anyone who, when Taylor isn’t on the list, I’m like, I could tell. I was like, yes. I was like, should I unfollow these people? Like this is a statement.

AM: They don’t get it.

JC: Because it does feel like they’re willfully doing it. It’s like you’re trying.

JH: You’ll have to intentionally there.

AM: You are the problem.

JH: There’s the problem is that I’m also the problem. It’s also me.

JC: Yes. When that song came out, I was like. Damn, she did it with this one.

JH: She did.

JC: Yes. She really did. Arianna. There was another thing I was going to say. It was good too. We talked about restaurants. We were talking about-

JH: Homophobia.

JC: Oh, I know. Were your families doing restaurants a lot out on Long Island?

JH: Your family a lot.

AM: My family’s a huge restaurant.

JC: Did you like the spots?

AM: Yes, we have these spots. I feel like every single night and both of my parents were working and they would come home and they were like, “Okay, we’re going out to eat.” That was very much the vibe of the family. Although my mom is an amazing cook. We definitely would go to restaurants and now I’m taking on the motherly role, I think at the apartment. I like cooking dinners.

JH: We’re exposing such severe scary codependency. We’re cooking every meal for us now.

JC: You don’t cook?

JH: I love that.

JC: Do you know how?

JH: There was a moment where I auditioned for “Worst Cooks in America, Single’s Edition.” I did get rejected, which was tough for like my morale and my spirit and my confidence.

JC: Wow.

JH: I think that-

JC: How many reality shows have you auditioned for?

JH: I didn’t seek it out. They emailed me and I was-

JC: How did they know you’re a bad cook?

JH: I guess they just felt it.

AM: They got the vibes.

JH: I think they were more still looking for it, it was when I was really popping off on like my personal TikTok and they were looking for people who they knew they could get sound bites from.

JC: Got you.

JH: It was like, oh my God. This is my star vehicle. I’m going to do it.

JC: Did you guys have TikTok followings before the podcast blew up?

AM: I didn’t. Joe did.

JH: Yes. Following is subjective. It was like 80K and it was from the-

JC: That’s significant.

JH: I was doing the Abigail Williams like crucible drag TikToks, like choose this, in 2020 and then I completely quit, like come back.

JC: Who’s Abigail Williams?

JH: “The Crucible,” the witch.

JC: Oh, yes.

JH: That was my moment. Then I was like, “I can’t do this anymore.” I abandoned it. It was beneficial I think in launching the pod that we were able to kind of use the following as a launching pad. I think that obviously that is now a side thing that people don’t really care about. which is great for me.

JC: Do you have a personal thing? Yes, so you do?

AM: I literally am somebody who has always struggled with social media. I just genuinely don’t like it and I’m not good at it, and I need to be good at it.

JC: I also don’t like social media, which is stupid because I’ve built, but the thing is, I’m not. TikTok is easy because TikTok you can do whatever you want on. Obviously, you have to suck the algorithm’s dick at every impasse to play the game, but you can really do whatever you want. Instagram, I find really — it’s so formulaic and I’m really bad at visual aesthetics. I have no artistic skills, I have no visual art. Making things look pretty on Instagram is impossible to me.

JH: I love social media. I know it’s such a sickness.

JC: The second my career gets to a place where I don’t need social media, deleting it all. I don’t believe you.

JH: No, I’ll hire someone. I work with people as the voices and the posting for celebrity clients and that was my job in my mid-20s and my dream-

JC: Are those people — Wait, I have questions about that. I’m going to pick a celebrity. You don’t have to say whether or not you did it. Because I’m sure you can’t. Let’s say you are doing Amy Adams’ TikTok or Instagram. You’re doing Amy Adams’ Instagram, so you’re doing her posting for her. You’re doing her stories. Is she ever looking at her own Instagram?

JH: Yes. No, the whole thing is, it’s very collaborative, but a lot of the time — Obviously, someone like Amy Adams doesn’t have the time in her day to be like, “I want to make a TikTok.” So there’s someone being like, “You should make this TikTok,” and she’ll approve it, and then she’s like, “Okay, great.” Or Instagram captions and comments. All of that. I’m sure it’s subjective depending on each person. Some people probably don’t give a f*ck, but I feel like most people are looking at the stuff before it goes live and I just don’t think they’re posting it or really spending their time on those.

JC: Got you.

JH: Which I’m so jealous of. I love sharing. I love sharing my life, but the results, I don’t enjoy how addictive it is and I think all about it. Which is beneficial for things the pod, but sometimes I literally just want to read a book and I can’t. I can’t physically bring myself to pick a book.

JC: I feel like I just hate that it feels like there’s constantly — It is so hungry for you to give it your personal life, and everything, and I have no interest in my personal life being on the internet in that way. I’m not a lifestyle influencer, I’m not a vlogger. I don’t really want you knowing my personal life, but I feel like the apps are so designed for that. That it’s scary. It feels like this abyss that’s sucking towards it and you’re constantly like, “What other content can I feed it so I don’t have to talk about like who I’m dating.”

AM: I think that is something that we’ve done with the podcast itself. It’s like we’re putting literally everything out there about our lives.

JH: To a point where I wish we could add.

AM: I know. Also at the same time in my own personal social media I’m like, “You already know everything about me, so I don’t really want to post anything more.”

JC: That makes sense. I feel like you guys talk about your history more than you talk about your present?

JH: It depends though. There’s some things that I wish I didn’t tell people, that I have this insecurity. I think that it sucks because it is the algorithm where if the more honest you are and the more specifically vulnerable you get, the more people obviously will connect to it and that helps people. Sometimes I’m like, “F*ck. Everyone knows about my every single sex issue.”

JH: You feel like you can’t listen to the podcast. You can’t. It’s like those things.

JC: Does the guy you’re dating listen to the podcast?

JH: No, he does not, but his friends do. They know more about me than he does.

JC: That’s, I think, healthy in a way. I think it’s healthier than him listening.

JH: Oh, yes. There’s a boundary. He did watch a Patron episode like in the past week and turned that off immediately. I feel like that’s the one — I’m glad that we took a break also because I’m like, “I want to make sure that like we’re being literally healthy about what’s being shared and what’s being-

JC: I think that’s really smart.

JH: Yes, because it’s easy to put everything out.

JC: I feel like the-

JH: It feels good, but I’m like-

JC: Yes. I feel the healthiest rule is, if you’re currently processing or dealing with
something, don’t talk about it. Talk about everything in hindsight.

JH: Yes. That’s a great point.

AM: That’s a really good point.

JC: Your face is like, I haven’t done that.

AM: No. We really-

JH: I haven’t processed a single thing.

AM: I’m still working on it. That is a really — Oh my god, I keep doing this.

JH: I love that sound.

AM: I wish I was timing it.

JH: During a good moment.

JC: Yes. It’s not hitting a dramatic moment. It’s out, but we’ll get there.

JH: No, but yes, that is a great point. I think that I’ve always processed things online in-

AM: We’re learning.

JC: Yes. I don’t think it’s necessarily bad to process things because I think it is helping people. If you post something insecure it is just like, “What are you sacrificing by being the person who does the posting it?”

JH: The response has been overwhelming in that sense. We are like, “Did people feel like they are being healed through us talking about those insecurities that we’re putting out there?”

JC: Are these things on the Patron, do you hide these paywall? Are these on the main?

JH: Episode three. We’re like, “Okay, what’s the worst thing about yourself?”

JC: Oh, God.

JH: Yes, but it is interesting because it also does empower you because I’m like, “Oh, now, that this thing’s out there, what do I have to be ashamed of for it? I’m owning it.”

JC: Oh, a hundred percent.

JH: Which is a whole other thing. I think that that’s like we’re also at this point that since we wrapped season one where we’ve been really reflective on the whole experience. I think the people that we started out as in May versus now are wildly two different people. I would say it’s-

JC: How so, what’s the biggest change?

JH: I think it’s just confidence. The way that I’m walking through the world now, I don’t feel as desperate to please people or as afraid of judgment because I’m like, “I know now that I can speak to people and they want to hear me speak.” It sucks it’s external validation, but I’m like, “I don’t feel as-

JC: The thing is, the truth is that external validation won’t heal you, but it can be the thing that gets you to the place to then do the internal work to internally validate. I think it can help.

JH: It’s like a nice tool to use.

JC: A hundred percent. You just need to not get addicted to it.

JH: One day it’s going to spin around and it’s not going to be validation. It’s going to be criticism and hate and that’s just a guarantee.

JC: There’s also criticism and hate and sometimes it goes away. The algorithm leaves you behind for a second and you’re not really getting any attention and your followers are going down and you have to be like, “That doesn’t actually reflect on me.”

JH: Anything. That’s why I need to get into therapy immediately. That’s raw dogging ahead and I can’t.

JC: Same. I’m really pushing for therapy. We’ll see how that goes.

JH: You’re being ghosted.

AM: I’m being ghosted by a therapist.

JC: That you’ve been seeing?

AM: No, I’ve never seen them before. We were texting nonstop and I definitely did pay.

JC: No. How much money?

AM: It was honestly only an $80 processing fee and then it would be a $25 copay every
single time I saw them.

JC: That’s a good price for therapy.

AM: I have great insurance. Then she’s ghosting me. She’s not the only therapist.

JC: She might be dead.

AM: You’re so mean.

JC: People forget when you’re getting ghosted that the person might be dead.

AM: They were so perfect before Thanksgiving and then post-Thanksgiving it was like silence.

JC: I thought my agent was ghosting me for a while and then she posted on Instagram, she had had a baby. I just didn’t know she was pregnant. Because one of my agents, I was texting my manager being like, “What’s going on? Why haven’t-” Then literally she posted. It was only like a two-day thing where I was, she hasn’t responded to anything I’ve sent. I had this question, is she mad at me? She was like, “I think everything’s fine, but I’ll go check.” Then she posts an answer. I’m like, “Welcome to the world.” It was a baby and I was like-

AM: Congrats.

JC: I’m an idiot. I was like, “Amazing. It’s so great.”

AM: Be like it’s all right. We lined up.

JC: It’s a good reminder that the world does not revolve around you. Okay, wait, I think we should wrap up by planning. This is how we wrap up every episode, we plan out a night together.

AM: Oh my God, thanks.

JC: I think we already did it, but let’s talk. Okay. Because I have a lot of restaurants over there. What kind of cuisine do you want to eat before a night out?

AM: Oh, gosh. That’s a really good question.

JH: There’s a lot of factors here.

AM: You matter more than I do in that.

JH: It’s not even that I matter more. I just like would probably. I have-

JC: The way you just called him a bottom is so crazy.

AM: Are we going to blame it?

JH: No, I was saying more IBS.

JC: Oh, okay. That’s not what I was-

JH: I really like the bottom.

JC: You are the one.

AM: They’re one of the same. When you say IBS, I think you’re bottom. I would say something that probably limits my dairy intake, but besides that, I’m literally fine.

JH: I feel like I wouldn’t know for that second about me too. It’s like I’m totally willing to-

AM: I’m like, “We could get pizza.”

JH: Oh my God. Oh yes. I would go to Leo.

JC: We could go to Leo, we could go to Kings County Imperial, which is incredible Chinese, or we could go to Suzu, which would be very light dairy.

AM: Suzu moment.

JC: Yes, because they have sushi, Ramen, and Musubi.

JH: Oh my God.

JC: It’s very good.

JH: Is there a cocktail choice there?

JC: Okay. Part of me feels like they’re beer and wine only. There’s alcohol. Wait, we never even talked about this. What do you guys like to drink? It’s quick, but I’m curious.

AM: Honestly for me, it’s so sick. It’s a Jack and Coke.

JC: That’s not that gross.

AM: I feel like I’m always ordering but I’m ordering it as a girlie.

JC: Okay. Precise.

AM: I feel like it’s just been like it’s having its moment-

JH: What you get out of the club.

AM: Out of the club I’m getting tequila soda, caffeine usually.

JC: Not a Jack and Coke.

AM: It depends on the night. If I want to have a chill night or I want to be crazy.

JC: Which one’s crazy?

AM: Like a tequila soda with a cigar. That’s my dad.

JC: Sure. Okay.

AM: What are you drinking?

JC: If we’re sitting down, having a drink of Martini. If I’m out, a gin and soda.

JH: Oh, interesting. A gin and soda. Wow.

JC: It’s really good.

JH: Okay I’ll try that. I can barely handle a gin and tonic.

JC: Yes, but that’s because tonic is way more intense than gin.

JH: Yes, but tonic is like a sweeter option.

JC: But it’s also bitter because it has quinine.

JH: It has a what?

JC: That’s why tonic is bitter. It has quinine.

JH: This is a science club.

AM: This is the bartender in you.

JH: Is it quinine?

JC: Is it quinine? That’s what it’s called.

JH: He pulls quinine out of gin. Okay, you’re right.

JC: It’s bitter. It’s also good for your joints. That’s why old people drink tonic.

AM: Oh my God.

JC: No gin and soda. Okay, wait, so we’ll go to let’s go to Suzume.

AM: We’re having gin and sodas.

JC: Yes, you’ll try gin and sodas and then we can BOP. There’s Metro there. There’s Macri. There’s Exley.

JH: Macri I have never been to and that’s the big next trip.

JC: I think Macri is in an interesting space in the demographic of gay bars right now, because I think it used to be Metro/Macri were like pop-in and Metro was always like the number one girl. I feel like baseline, Metro is the main gay bar of that area and then Macri was the Mets to the Yankees of it, you know what I mean? Exley was you can go in there, it’s like the Rando of it. It used to be a straight bar, then it was a bi-bar and now it’s gay. It slowly came out over the years. It was the place you could always get a seat and get a cocktail, it was never crowded. Now everything’s flip-flopped. Exley is the girl. She’s the bell of the ball. Makry is sort of becoming what Exley was and Metro is becoming what Macri was. I think that’s the new — that’s sort of what I’m sensing. Then Rosemont is like an after-school daycare program.

JH: Yes.

JC: It’s actually so crazy. I walked in there and I was like, “I don’t know if I’m too old for this, I don’t think I’m that old.” I will walk in there and be like, “This is a little much.”

AM: Creepy.

JH: I was shocked. I was there and was like, “I can’t be here anymore. Every single person here is 16 years old.”

JC: It’s a little intense. I think we can sort of explore those options.

AM: With that in my mind, I’m really going to be taking that ball and thinking about actually being the bell. I want to see if she’s the bell of the ball at night.

JH: She’s always packed now.

JC: I went there early on — when was I there? It was a few days ago and went there early and it wasn’t crazy, then all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, and there it goes.” Do you know what I mean? It just happened and now it’s intense.

AM: I think we also just need friends.

JC: Okay.

AM: I was having that thought like we end up — especially gay friends. I feel like collectively, four gay friends.

JH: Mostly girl gays I think.

JC: Okay, well, then we’ll go out. We’ll do this. I’m going to Suzume in a minute, so I’m down for this. Okay, gorge. Thank you so much for doing the show.

JH: Thank you so much for having us.

JC: Bye.

JH: Bye

Thank you so much for listening to “Going Out With Jake Cornell.” If you could please go and rate and review us on whatever you’re listening to this on, that would be really gorgeous for me in a huge way, so thank you.

And now, for some credits. “Going Out With Jake Cornell” is recorded in New York City and is produced by Keith Beavers and Katie Brown. The music you’re hearing is by Darbi Cicci. The cover art you’re probably looking at was photographed by M. Cooper and designed by Danielle Grinberg. And a special shout-out to VinePair co-founders Adam Teeter and Josh Malin for making all of this possible.